Here’s some pictures from Temper Trap’s Russian Standard Live at the Chapel performance last night, followed by Tinie Tempah at the Blackberry Torch launch last week.
These were shows i shot for the sponsors and it got me thinking about shooting live music and my changed relationship with shooting shows.
I worked out some time ago that shooting live music photos is no way to make a living. Concert photos are a dime a dozen. Most shows have at least ten accredited photographers shooting them, not to mention the dozens of people photographing from the crowd.
Everyone is getting very similar photos. We all use pretty much the same cameras and lenses. The show we shoot tours around the country with the same staging night after night. Every week hundreds and thousands of adequately professional photos of an artists performance are produced.
There’s lots of supply but where’s the demand?
Magazines, newspapers and websites might run your photos, but don’t expect to make money from it.
You might get $20 if you’re shooting for street press. You might make a wee bit more if your shot makes it to one of the few local monthly music mags. If you’re shooting for a website you’ll likely get nothing. If you’re shooting for an agency you’ll likely make peanuts unless something out of the ordinary happens at the show. The daily papers don’t usually use a photo with their reviews and if they do it’ll be shot by a staffer or pulled from a wire service.
The fact is when i look around a photo pit these days i can tell most people aren’t getting paid for it. They’re shooting for fun. It’s a hobby they have after they knock off their day job. They get a ticket to a show, shoot quite reasonable shots on their digital SLR the day job bought, and supply the photos to a website or paper that doesn’t pay them for their work. The photographers payment is a ticket to the show and the kudos they get when publishing the shots and getting comments like “Great capture!” or “I wish i had your job!”.
And who am i to begrudge these people? That was me. That’s how i learned my craft. I used to shoot hundreds of shows for little reimbursement. But not anymore. Ego boosting web comments aren’t enough to sustain me.
The pictures you see here were paid for by brands who paid to put on a music event to bring positive publicity to their brands.
Like the artists who receive a healthy paycheck to play corporate or branded events, i’m quite willing to do the same to photograph them. Sure, I feel a little icky when making sure i frame branding into shots, when my instincts would be to crop it out. But that discomfort is short lived. The cash that pays for my rent and camera gear makes up for that.
This is not a rant to implore people not to shoot for free or lambast publications that don’t pay. That horse has well and truly bolted. But thankfully there’s still the odd job that’ll pay fairly, and if it means shooting some logos and drinks and mobile phones to go with the performance shots then i’m all for it.
Well said Dan. I wish a lot more corporate backed live gigs were happening up here in Brisbane. But for now I have learnt to separate live shooting in to a ‘just for enjoyment and definitely won’t pay the bills’ category.
Nice post Dan. I’m glad you avoided the “these people do it for free, so they must be clueless newbies or crap photographers” line that many seem to take. We all have our own reasons for doing what we do. I’m the (very well paid) day-job guy that you referred to, and I have no problem at all with not getting paid for live music photography. Would I prefer if it payed? Sure, but it’s never going to pay enough to keep me clothed and fed.
I love live music and I love photography, and after I moved to Brisbane (and started to get older) I found that I wasn’t going to gigs anymore. So I got into music photography essentially to get me out of the house, knowing full well that it’d probably never pay, but hoping that it would improve my skills and lead to other, possibly paid opportunities. And it has.
My thoughts exactly Dan. I do it for the love of music. And most of the time I kicked out of the venue after the first three songs anyway. Where’s the fun in that! Corporate events are really the only way I can make back what I’ve spent.
By the way. This is you from my end, with phones in the frame!
http://s3.amazonaws.com/musicnetwork/public/galleries/171/_MG_6150_647x431.jpg
I think a lot of us who started off doing these ‘free’ shows have moved onto what you call sponsored events. It really is where the money is. I have been fortunate to be shooting for Sunset Events (who organise Southbound, Laneway, Blues & Roots, One Movement, etc.. here in Perth) for the past year now and I’m absolutely loving it. As well as the access I’m given, I’m being paid decently too. I’d probably do this full time if there were enough festivals in the year to keep me fed.
Also working with the events company has allowed me to expand my range of subjects. I still shoot like a spot photographer/photojournalist but have been taking photos of cultural and arts events which are, to be frankly honest, way more exciting and challenging than shooting regular bands on the same stages.
I still do the odd freebie for street press because I still love taking photos at gigs but if I really want to catch a band, I’ll get tickets instead.
I’d like to leave on this note though: there’s no such thing as ‘selling out’ anymore. It’s ok to make money from what you love to do.
Do you know why I love you? Because you speak truth.
But also, I’d like to point out that music writers are in a very similar situation. I go to interview an artist or review a show and there’s a damn good chance there’s ten other people there doing the exact same thing as me. Of the lot of us, Bernard Zuel or George Palthingal are usually the only ones getting paid.
Let’s be honest; free gig tickets are nice, but they don’t pay for your cab ride there and back, let alone a beer should you -gasp- want one. And just like amateur photographers with Blackberrys and Iphones, so too are there millions of amateur bloggers, FBers and Twits who have all the salient information up for public consumption before you’ve got a chance in hell of making some dosh from it.
Like you, I’ll do this ’til I die because I love it. But it really is starting to give me the shits. I see all these great online ventures starting (like Ramadge’s ‘World According To Gaz’ but to be honest many of these things are run by a closed in network of bros who hate anything or anyone new. So you have a choice between being talented and being passed over or being a wanker and getting hired purely on that basis….?
Sorry if that was a hijack. Your piece just really articulated the problem that I think can be extended even beyond photography
Hey Jonno, yes i’m sure the situation for writers is very similar, if not worse. The barrier to entry for writing is very low, with photography at least someone has to invest in camera gear.
There was a quote in SLC Punk where the father said to his punk son, “I didn’t sell out, I bought in.” That was probably written with tongue firmly in cheek, but it becomes more and more real each day.
You’re doing a great job (web props!) doing what you enjoy. I’ve been following your blog for years, so it’s good to be able to see the hard work and persistance paying off in this regard.
Personally, I try to avoid making photography a viable option for payment. I work hard in my day job (except as I write this of course) in an industry that I am very passionate about. Having photography as a hobby, and not an income I could worry about, is great. I’ve made a bit of money doing some party gigs, which are less about the photos, and more about the fun anyway.
I think what I’m getting at is that you’re proving the adage that it takes a lot of hard work to get anywhere at most things in life. Everything is a brand these days, and if you’re making money off of them, then good stuff, that can keep the anarcho-punks happy.
Well said, Dan.
Well said and right on with what I’ve been wondering about given I’ve nearly finished my photography course (and have an assignment on the topic of the industry we’re trying to enter). There is a dude here in Melbourne who shoots EVERY gig, you see his name on FL, thedwarf, etc and it looks like Tourism Vic are using his pics on their website.
He also does video and is enthusiastic and has a huge social media audience and following amongst the Melbourne music community which is kudos to his hard work. I’m sure some of you know who I’m referring to and hell he probably is reading this (he!) but I don’t want to name him as I’m airing my own speculations on his business.
However, whilst I’m sure he makes some money, i’ve been wondering whether he makes enough to pay back the costs of going out nearly 7 days a week to gigs (sometimes several in one night) to earn a living vs whether he has another day job to suppliment his income. He’s putting up free content to free content providers and I know he’s had photos published in The Age, RS, etc, but they have specific rates and aren’t nearly as much as a commercial photographer would truly charge. I’m involved with the ACMP and attended Gavin Blue’s lecture on charging, along with having my tutors give us rundowns on how you charge clients and believe me, there is no way most bands are paying that to their photographers!
Additionally, whilst I think FL type websites are awesome for access to shows (hell I’ve done a couple for them) given now you can’t take a SLR to venues, but their T&C state they own the right to sell on your photo but you don’t neccessarily get a cut of that.
Hey Natalie, i’m pretty sure i know the Melbourne dude you’re referring to. I’d be very surprised if he’s making much money. I’m guessing he’s in it for the lifestyle and internet kudos.
Good to see you’re educating yourself on how to charge clients.
Income purely from live shows – dont know anyone
to do this as a FT job i think you also need to be doing promo/tour work as well. Your client base will be made up of mags/street press/promoters and the bands themself.
There are only a single digit number of people i know who do the above.
This will only remain a hobby for me, i have already covered 90percent of bands i listened to growing up, been published in magazines in au/overseas – in the 4-5 years doing this i may have barely made back total spent on gear – not including the travel, drinks and pokies involved while out
also I don’t think I would enjoy doing this fulltime – the chance I would end up getting bored and burnt out is too likely
I think you really have to be shooting in the studio as well as live to be making any sort of decent money.
Gone are the days of media outlets paying for shots when ‘as mentioned’ there are 10 others shooting the same show who for a photo credit are willing to pass on free shots to see it in a magazine etc
I can probably only count 4-5 people that I know shoot basically music related photos as a form of income – but this does not stop them from branching out to corporate/red carpet events on the side
I never see myself going down that avenue as ‘also mentioned’ the rest of us have a full time job to pay for the bills & this will only ever remain an on the side thing
In the 4-5 years I’ve been shooting shows I have probably only just made enough that’d pay back for money spent on gear – not including the amount of travel costs/drinks & pokies cash spent while attending said shows but I have now covered pretty much 90% of the bands I grew up listening to & have not paid for a ticket to shows I want to see in that entire time. Their are still goals to achieve but I also think if I did this full-time I would not enjoy it as much & would possibly give it up
Course it’s depressing to see the amount of shit photogs who are actually making money covering events while I remain without an outlet backing me but at the end of the day I have to be happy that I can take the better shots and just sit back waiting for the email reply to come through from the countless mags/papers/promoters I have submitted portfolios to
Great, thought provoking post, Dan. I hadn’t realised there were such similarities between writers and photographers with regards to payment (Last year I blogged about our plight: http://www.alicetynan.com/2009/08/pay-day.html
I think you’ve got a perfectly pragmatic approach to, you know, paying rent and affording to eat. Plus I wonder if working in the branding might not end up being an extra creative challenge?
Alice,
Alas both writers and photographers are screwed. Though I can tell you this, I’ve had fights with editors who are okay to credit their writers, but do photographers get credit? No!
Hey Dan,
Well, we discussed your post at length on our podcast (podgoat.com episode 17) and I am sorry, I didn’t know how to say your name / and I was only joking about my Temper Trap stuff ( http://gtvone.com/2010/11/10/the-temper-trap-london-indigo2-best-buy-gig/ )
we’ve come up dry… got nothin’… there is no way to make it a. pay better, b. be a bit more regulated so “a” happens automatically…
One thing I’ve been toying with (last post on my pathetic blog) is trying to band together and work on controlling the industry a bit… like a PA for music ‘togs.. it’d be a darn hard thing to start, but maybe… (or, not)
I’m an Aussie “music photographer” in London and we face the same plight over here – though, I’m mostly doing it for fun for a specific venue that I’ve been working for, for ages… so not making any cash / but at the same time not taking work from anyone else… (I mean who shoots Jedward, right?)
Anyway, just saying hi, love your stuff..
Sime
Hey Sime, just had a listen to the podcast. Glad to see that between Danny and I we stimulated some discussion on the topic.
I take it in good humour, but in the podcast you ask what i’m complaining about? If you read my post you’ll note that i’m not actually complaining about anything. I’m just stating things as i see them in a fairly even handed fashion.
But now let me complain about something.
As i say in my post, i don’t begrudge music photographers that shoot shows for the love of it. But in your podcast you mention that you shot Temper Trap’s show for Best Buy for free. See that does annoy me. That’s not just shooting a show for fun, that’s shooting for a sponsor, to their brief and for their publicity purposes. That’s something you should be paid for. It’s ludicrous for a company like Best Buy to claim they don’t have budget to pay for a photographer – they have budget to pay the band, to stage a show, to pay their publicists, to print the media wall covered in their logos that you photographed, etc…
They have plenty of budget – they will just continue to use it in other areas while good photographers allow themselves to be exploited and shoot for free.
I accept that people will photograph shows for free to get access and share their photos on websites and in the press – but for commercial use or if you’re shooting for a sponsor – that’s where you should draw the line.
Hey Dan – I’ve enjoyed reading through the responses from your article & watching where it’s gone.
The previous post from Sime has prompted my comment.
I’m sorry Sime, but if you work for a venue shooting gigs and giving away your shots to all & sundry (including SPONSORS!!!) – you ARE taking work away from professional photographers. If you don’t realise that, I’d be holding off on that Photog rep PA idea – you won’t get many on board.
I’m coming from the Commercial Photography world, so my comments don’t directly relate to music photography – but I think there’s enough common ground.
When starting out, photographers need a break. Working for not much money to get a client “on side” has been happening for ages, but before digital this was an expensive exercise.
For a client using a photographer for the first time, there’s a risk. To alleviate their worry, communicate to them that you understand it’s the first job you’ve shot for them & you can do a trial run whereby if they don’t like the shots – they don’t have to pay. This will make sure you do a good job! Worst case scenario, you don’t get paid – but client doesn’t get any shots. You don’t get the client, but everyone moves on. If they love the shots – charge them commercial rates.
Approaching people who can potentially use your images for their brand is another way of reducing the “fear” new clients hold. They see the photo in front of them – they either like it & will pay for it, or won’t. There’s no “that’s great, tell you what – give this to us for nothing & you can shoot the next one” uh uh – never happens.
Having meetings with ad people, designers, etc & showing your book (or whoring) is a tried and tested way of getting work. Going into a meeting fully prepared is paramount. What kind of work have they commissioned before? What clients have they got on their books? Bring your folio so they can get to know you, but bring in a few shots that they can potentially use RIGHT NOW.
GIVING away photos for nothing, is & never has been a way to get paid work from a client. Their perceived value of your photos will always be $0 or thereabouts.
As for the “very well paid” professionals who are hobbyists – happy snapping. Sometimes I think it’d be nice to have photography as just a hobby. But if you think that giving away your photos to companies & publications for nothing more than a photo credit, pat on the back & a facebook link is harmless, you’re wrong.
The article and the discussion were a great read. I’ve relegated myself to doing it “just for fun” when I can. Shooting for various blogs on their terms just to get in to the gig for free wasn’t really all that much fun. They get free content which pulls viewers and advertising dollars to their site, whilst the photographer gets minimal internet cred and little else.
My question is, how the hell do you get work shooting the sponsored gigs?
Hey Paul,
It’s a good question – how you get those corporate gigs. And there’s no one easy answer.
Like many things, it’s about who you know. And that’s the number one way to get a job like that – have a PR person or publicist already aware of your work, so that when they get a client that needs performance photography you’re the first person they think of.
So having some sort of profile and reputation as an event photographer helps.
A strong online presence helps too, because if a publicist is justifying the cost of hiring a photographer, they may well want to email examples of your work to their client. If they can just flick over a URL that makes it easy.
A good search engine optimised site can help. I can see through my google analytics that a number of people find my site through the phrase “event photography sydney”.
But i’d say word of mouth is the strongest way to score those gigs. If a publicist doesn’t know a good photographer already the first thing they’ll do is ask their friends and colleagues.
The trick is being the guy who’s described as “if you want kick arse photos, then you want this guy – but he doesn’t come cheap” not the guy who’s described as “i’ve got a mate that’ll probably do it for free”.
Thanks for that Dan, I’m getting spots of paid work here and there, and I’m not shooting for free any more. I just need to find the time to work on my site. š
Hi Dan,
Just to clarify, as I don’t tend to go into detail on the podcast, I do talk a lot of crap…
I shot ‘for Best Buy’ as my mate Gray is the social media guy for them. I knew that he’d shoot them to use for Facebook etc if I didn’t, It was at a venue where I’m the house photog and I wanted to see Temper Trap live, to take a portrait or two back stage (was aaa) …and to take four of my friends to the gig (tickets were free for me) …so, whilst I am totally with you on not shooting corp / sponsored stuff for free, there are exceptions to the rule, if it’s ‘in your favour’
Not so black and white mate. just wanted to explain.
S
I can’t remember a time when I’ve been so tired. I go out to take photos at least 100 times a year even when I have not been working, but this year at least I have been shooting as a house photographer for a venue that at least gives me free access to shows there/dinner and a lift home at the end of the night. Much better than I’ve gotten at a lot of places.
The people I go to see are my friends and I don’t usually ask for money unless it is for an album cover/promo work and they agree to it.
I don’t think I will ever be able to make a living as a photographer and most likely wouldn’t want to as I need the stability for regular employment.
For some reason I can’t abide talking about cameras and will just buy the first one I can find, yes, even the cheapest one. It really does not make any difference unless you are prepared to put a lot of work into it.
Now I have a month’s backlog due to my day job and probably won’t get to go through all the photos until Christmas, it’s been a fun year though.